Wow this spectres company sure makes some high quality expensive crap!
I could argue that the trumpenol thing shouldnt be considered for numista as the website itself doesn't even call it a token or medallion of any kind, just a “collectable”.
I thought of that as well, but I think Numista should apply its rules to members and issuers alike. I don't think people will rush to buy it if it were “censored” on this site. They may look at it, yes, and hopefully they'll appreciate the integrity of the Numista team rather than be offended by the decision.
I sent a “modify data” message about this. We'll see what decision they take. It's already too much that Power Coin and the other fake minters get free advertising on this site.
Edit ---
fljohnson
Have you ever run into a blurred image on a search that you didn't unblur just to see what you were missing?
The logical consequence of this point of view is that no image —sexual or other— should be blurred.
I don't remember ever looking online for an image that is blurred on Numista. I regularly check the “latest additions to the catalogue” and see blurred images of “collector coins” from the African and other countries, none of which coins I care for.
The Adult tag is solely for displays of explicit nudity. If you want to blur images of what you consider politically offensive it will require a new tag. Maybe it should be called “Anti-Free Speech" Tag.
The Adult tag is solely for displays of explicit nudity. If you want to blur images of what you consider politically offensive it will require a new tag. Maybe it should be called “Anti-Free Speech" Tag.
This means that you consider Numista “anti free speech” since political discussions are not allowed on the forum. I'm just saying that we should apply the same standards to issuers as to Numista members.
It's your right to defend MAGA, but not on Numista so far as I understand.
You're making an assumption that I am defending MAGA. That is absolutely false. I am saying that what you are proposing is in fact a blatant political statement which, as you say, is not allowed on the forum and should not be allowed in the catalog. Nudity of the other hand is offensive to peoples from many nations and nude images of a sexual nature made available to children may be illegal in some places. Trying to equate the two situations is a stretch.
You're making an assumption that I am defending MAGA. That is absolutely false. I am saying that what you are proposing is in fact a blatant political statement which, as you say, is not allowed on the forum and should not be allowed in the catalog. Nudity of the other hand is offensive to peoples from many nations and nude images of a sexual nature made available to children may be illegal in some places. Trying to equate the two situations is a stretch.
I don't know why you're fixated on nudity. I mentioned the blurring of images because Numista has policies about inappropriate materials. You didn't understand my posts. I didn't equate nudity with politics, I said that we should apply Numista's policies not only to members but to issuers as well. In the case of nudity —even 18th-century paintings by the masters— the photos in the catalogue are blurred. I'm pretty sure if someone posted a nude on the forum, it would be removed. Likewise, some racist and other offensive memes have been removed from the forum in recent years; these memes had been posted by Numista members. All I'm saying is that offensive political statements should also be removed or blurred when they come from PowerCoins just as when they come from any Numista member.
Now, you claim that "what [I am] proposing is in fact a blatant political statement”. What political statement is that?
What I said is the Adult tag is for nudity. That's why this statement is on all Adult tagged objects, “Please note that this item displays explicit nudity and may not be suitable for all viewers.” For blurring politically offensive (to you) images you'll need a new tag. “offensive political statements should also be removed or blurred…” What is offensive to you is not offensive to everyone. The same doesn't apply to nudity. The nude images are nude images for everyone. Why do you think you should be the one to decide what is offensive politically?
And, for the record, the Trumpenol medal is garbage.
This is offensive to some. N#239927 Blur that too?
Since political statements are not allowed on Numista, this should apply to MAGA-friendly Power Coin just as much as to Numista members.
The images should therefore be blurred. This propagandistic crap is much worse than many of the blurred sexual images in the catalogue.
Political statements are not allowed on the forum.
On the other side, coins and medals have always had the function to promote the leaders and are therefor sometimes very propagandistic (if that's even a word). I see no point in blurring any of the older or more recent images on coins because they promote some kind of ideology or leadership, especially as it is impossible to define when an image would be considered “political”. Third Reich and Communist imagery both belong to our human races history, just as Maduro's currency and Trump's tarifs. No need to hide them …
Just call me Bram
No new swaps for the moment, still too many half-ongoing swaps to clean up!
My opinion is that the "propagandistic crap" is in the words not the pictures so this really comes down to not allowing these into the catalog or letting them be as you can't blur the lettering.
The answer is not black and white as to what constitutes an offensive statement. I would say a statement is offensive when it disparages entire groups such as, in the case under review, overgeneralizing accusations about the entire group of liberals. Also, negation of trans people by writing “men shouldn't compete in women's sport” where “biological males” should have been used. The difference is important in spite of the fact that many on the radical left would cancel you the same for either statement. On any website where trans people can join freely as any other member, whatever the administrators individually think about trans people, the statement with “men” is probably offensive to many if not most trans women (which I know from reading discussions elsewhere online); the other, with “biological males” can also be perceived as offensive, but it's much more respectful of the scientific evidence.
“The nude images are nude images for everyone.” — It's not so simple. There's a wide gap between some explicit brothel tokens and reproductions on coins (or on stamps since the 1960s) of 18th-century masters' paintings on public display in museums around the world. The 1916–1917 Standing Liberty quarter is another borderline case.
“Why do you think you should be the one to decide what is offensive politically?” — Why does Numista arbitrate such issues on the forum? I wanted Numista to apply the same principles to everyone.
Yes, “propagandistic” is a word.
I expected the Nazis to be mentioned sooner or later in this context. Many countries still criminalize public displays of the swastika while others don't (to take but one example). The difference for a forum like Numista is that nazism is history, not current affairs. When current affairs becomes history is, of course, a grey zone.
Here too there are borderline cases. For example I would not exclude/blur Russia's coins and banknotes issued from 2014 to celebrate the annexation of Crimea since (so far as I know) they do not disparage the Ukrainian people, though of course many Ukrainians were angered by these issues.
As for the 1000 Francs Donald Trump from Cameroun, though it's bad taste (because so opportunistic), I can't see anything offensive in it. If Trump actually said “We are all in this together”, it's about the least controversial statement he ever made as President.
If things stay as they are, it's OK; I won't push this any further. My point was that the same logic should apply to everyone and every statement. I can understand that some would disagree on the principle that the catalogue should be as complete as possible. That's why I suggested blurring the images (at least the reverse) of this object rather than removing the object entirely as others suggested. I understand that this gets probably too delicate and cumbersome when dozens of new objects of all sorts are entered into the catalogue on a daily basis.
This discussion is now linked on the catalogue page, so anyone who clicks on the link can decide for him/herself what to do or what side of the debate they're more confortable with.
To me you are comparing apples and oranges. Limiting or banning political discussion is because at some point the discussion turns from a debate into an argument. That is the simple answer as to why.
An item about a political position or opinion is common on coins, medal, tokens and even banknotes. I do not collect stamps, but I am willing to bet you can find it there too. It has been common on USA items. Many Civil War and Hard Times tokens were political statements.
A line in the sand about what should be censored has a tendency to move in one direction or another based on the person or persons enforcing the rule. A good example is the Adult tag. Clearly based on the link above, the guideline was disclosed on what should and should not be censored but that line varies for each referee, or they lack the knowledge on what the actual guidelines are.
@ZacUK just in case you are not aware of this discussion.
Many coins and exonumia items have a propagandistic nature, and our goal is to catalogue all items. I agree this item is of very bad taste, but I don't consider it's a valid reason to remove or hide the item from the catalogue.
