Ive noticed there are 2 entries for the 10, 25 and 100 roubles, this was probably done by following SCWPM, but honestly its unnecesary.
The differences between issues come down to watermarks and slight variations in paper color, they are just varieties, not different banknotes. More specialized catalogues show this.
Merging listings is always something we need to do with caution around here...
In the case of these listings, they were all created by @allexisand approved by the @Oklahoman. Therefore, I'd like to get their opinion before we decide what to do in these cases.
We'll wait for your comments here in this forum.
Regards,
Vladimir.
Vladimir
Catalogue Administrator and Banknote Master Referee.
The diferences are in the printed color not the paper color. Until someone comes up with better photos I say don't merge. One thing can be done and modify each title to reflect the colour of the notes.
The diferences are in the printed color not the paper color. Until someone comes up with better photos I say don't merge. One thing can be done and modify each title to reflect the colour of the notes.
Thanks for the reply, Allexis.
There are some past sales (auctions) in some listings that could help us get better images. I believe this way we can improve the listings and maintain separations, if necessary.
Regards,
Vladimir
Vladimir
Catalogue Administrator and Banknote Master Referee.
The diferences are in the printed color not the paper color. Until someone comes up with better photos I say don't merge. One thing can be done and modify each title to reflect the colour of the notes.
Differences are the paper color, catalogue says so, pictures show it too.
I already have both white and bluish-gray paper picture examples for each (10,25 and 100).
Also, even if we didnt have them the issues should merge either way, these are just varieties, listed as so on catalogue.
Ok so you have pictures but you don't share and want me to take your word for it? What catalogue says the difference is in the paper and not the print? Krause shows difference in the print and even with the bad photos we have the difference is visible. And no we don't have to merge everything.
Ok so you have pictures but you don't share and want me to take your word for it? What catalogue says the difference is in the paper and not the print? Krause shows difference in the print and even with the bad photos we have the difference is visible. And no we don't have to merge everything.
A.Yu. Kuznetsov. Paper money of Russian Turkestan.
It can also be seen in fox-notes, the largest online catalogue of russian notes.
Pictures of the differnt types can be identified if you check the past sales section.
Analyzing what has been posted so far, we are faced with a fact that is nothing new: catalog inconsistency (in this case, the SCWPM).
It is well-known that renowned catalogs by local authors are excellent references, especially for issues from specific periods. What Polygon has posted here deserves analysis and consideration.
In the image below, we have a note that was classified by a Russian certifier as a P#S1048, but with a very visible green coloration - as opposed to the cataloged green-blue tone.
On the other hand, it is also clear that the SCWPM will continue to be the main cataloging reference for some years to come; therefore, separate records are useful for better organization, etc.
@Polygon, one last question (primarily regarding the 10 Rubles): is there any watermark on the different papers used to print these notes? Perhaps the catalog you use may have this information.
Vladimir
Catalogue Administrator and Banknote Master Referee.
Analyzing what has been posted so far, we are faced with a fact that is nothing new: catalog inconsistency (in this case, the SCWPM).
It is well-known that renowned catalogs by local authors are excellent references, especially for issues from specific periods. What Polygon has posted here deserves analysis and consideration.
In the image below, we have a note that was classified by a Russian certifier as a P#S1048, but with a very visible green coloration - as opposed to the cataloged green-blue tone.
On the other hand, it is also clear that the SCWPM will continue to be the main cataloging reference for some years to come; therefore, separate records are useful for better organization, etc.
@Polygon, one last question (primarily regarding the 10 Rubles): is there any watermark on the different papers used to print these notes? Perhaps the catalog you use may have this information.
Yes! Its either 25 or wavy lines
Here some examples on a 100r note (where the first examples of the wtermarks that i found)
Analyzing what has been posted so far, we are faced with a fact that is nothing new: catalog inconsistency (in this case, the SCWPM).
It is well-known that renowned catalogs by local authors are excellent references, especially for issues from specific periods. What Polygon has posted here deserves analysis and consideration.
In the image below, we have a note that was classified by a Russian certifier as a P#S1048, but with a very visible green coloration - as opposed to the cataloged green-blue tone.
On the other hand, it is also clear that the SCWPM will continue to be the main cataloging reference for some years to come; therefore, separate records are useful for better organization, etc.
@Polygon, one last question (primarily regarding the 10 Rubles): is there any watermark on the different papers used to print these notes? Perhaps the catalog you use may have this information.
Yes! Its either 25 or wavy lines
Here some examples on a 100r note (where the first examples of the wtermarks that i found)
It also appears to be that, in the case of the 10r, the numerical watermark is on the white paper, while the wavy lines is on the blueish-gray one
Okay. In this case, for the 10-ruble, we'll keep the records separate, following the criteria established by Numista (different watermarks). We can include this information regarding the paper type and watermark for the two issues in the records.
I'd appreciate your help with this, as you have a local catalog that seems to have more accurate information. First, let's adjust the 10-ruble records. Then, we'll move on to the other denominations, okay?
If you can help us, please include the information for the 10-ruble issue from this catalog (Kuznetsov) here for the necessary adjustments.
Thank you in advance for your valuable help!
Vladimir.
Vladimir
Catalogue Administrator and Banknote Master Referee.
Okay. In this case, for the 10-ruble, we'll keep the records separate, following the criteria established by Numista (different watermarks). We can include this information regarding the paper type and watermark for the two issues in the records.
I'd appreciate your help with this, as you have a local catalog that seems to have more accurate information. First, let's adjust the 10-ruble records. Then, we'll move on to the other denominations, okay?
If you can help us, please include the information for the 10-ruble issue from this catalog (Kuznetsov) here for the necessary adjustments.
Thank you in advance for your valuable help!
Vladimir.
For sure, i'll help. But, i will still advocate for these to merge, if we gave independent entries for each type of watermark the number of entries for russian civil war would be frankly overwhelming and things would get confusing.
Many banknotes in this period of time have at least 2 or more watermarks, for example the 100r of this bukhara series alone has 5 posibilities.
Unifying the varieties and havving them all listed i think its for the best, such as with the Don republic issues i was working in a while ago
It's a slightly different situation, Polygon. In the case of these issues (Bukharan), we have different reference numbers for the two 10, 25, and 100 ruble issues from 1922.
In the case of the 100 ruble issues, the five variants can be condensed into the two existing registers. The difference in the 10, 25, and 100 ruble issues is due to the paper on which they were printed (white paper or bluish-gray paper), according to Fox-Notes.
Let's detail the registers further with information on the type of paper, watermarks, and other details. We can list P#S1043/1044/1045 as "First Issue" and the others as "Second Issue". We just need to be sure of the type of paper used in each one (white or bluish-gray).
Vladimir
Catalogue Administrator and Banknote Master Referee.
It's a slightly different situation, Polygon. In the case of these issues (Bukharan), we have different reference numbers for the two 10, 25, and 100 ruble issues from 1922.
In the case of the 100 ruble issues, the five variants can be condensed into the two existing registers. The difference in the 10, 25, and 100 ruble issues is due to the paper on which they were printed (white paper or bluish-gray paper), according to Fox-Notes.
Let's detail the registers further with information on the type of paper, watermarks, and other details. We can list P#S1043/1044/1045 as "First Issue" and the others as "Second Issue". We just need to be sure of the type of paper used in each one (white or bluish-gray).
Hi, i understand scwpm gives us different reference numbers, but that doesnt mean we have to follow them, specially when more specialized catalogues (and basically any russian catalogue) like foxnotes and kusnetzov list them as varieties.
As for the way they are split, foxnotes for this issue is based on kuznetsov's catalogue, who does it based on watermarks, kusnetzov in all of this banknote series only mentions color of paper like 2 notes. In foxnotes almost every entry mentions color probably because the comunity has observed the coincidence.
Listing them as “first” and “second” issues would be a lie, as we do not have a way of backing such statement.
What i do agree on is following foxnotes/kustnetzov; a single entry with everything listed as varieties.
To continue this forum, I've made some adjustments to the records for the 10 and 25 ruble banknotes (which will remain separate). We need to add more information to the record for the 100 ruble note.
It seems to me that only one of the variants mentioned in Fox-Notes was printed on bluish-gray paper (which will be in one of the pages) and the other variants on white paper (in another page).
We only need this detail to adjust the records and place the variants in their correct places – one on one page and the others on another page. Any help in this regard would be valuable. =)
Regards, Vladimir.
Vladimir
Catalogue Administrator and Banknote Master Referee.
Both images clearly show notes printed on white paper. Paper colour can be difficult to judge on well-used notes. Distinguishing between grey and white in images taken at different times is really hard.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Both images clearly show notes printed on white paper. Paper colour can be difficult to judge on well-used notes. Distinguishing between grey and white in images taken at different times is really hard.
Exactly what I said, the difference is not the colour of the paper.
Both images clearly show notes printed on white paper. Paper colour can be difficult to judge on well-used notes. Distinguishing between grey and white in images taken at different times is really hard.
Exactly what I said, the difference is not the colour of the paper.
Both images clearly show notes printed on white paper. Paper colour can be difficult to judge on well-used notes. Distinguishing between grey and white in images taken at different times is really hard.
I see both of those as white paper, up in the thread are the comparison of the types, i trust infinitely more the russians when it comes to their own notes.
I dont deny that there couldve been slight variations in printing color, its not uncommon in civil war issues, but the way theyve been catalogued its by watermarks + paper color
The Bank Note Museum (which cites SCWPM as a source of information) should not be considered the only true source of information. In the case of these Russian issues, the Fox Notes website is indeed much more specialized and reliable.
However, for the 100 Ruble issue, things seem a bit more complicated than the others. In the 10 and 25 Ruble issues, the shade differed due to the type of paper they were printed on (which, obviously, affected the color tone, to which the BNM refers). For the 100 Ruble issues, I don't see a difference in the printing paper, but I do see a difference in shades.
In any case, the pages will not be merged. We will still have one page for each Pick type (as we already do). The question is what information we will put on each page.
Regards,
Vladimir
Vladimir
Catalogue Administrator and Banknote Master Referee.
I see two notes photographed separately which could be under quite different lighting conditions. We need to compare the notes in the same image to be sure that the grey paper variety exists. The images on BNM are clearly white paper, so the grey paper would be an additional variety if it exists.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
I see two notes photographed separately which could be under quite different lighting conditions. We need to compare the notes in the same image to be sure that the grey paper variety exists. The images on BNM are clearly white paper, so the grey paper would be an additional variety if it exists.
Here are two other examples, both (like those images) from the same auction house, Katz, they are always consistent with their photos.
I believe the BNM is confusing things, it wouldnt be the first time. The way these bukhara notes have been catalogued is by watermark and then papercolor, as shown in russian catalogues like foxnotes.
The Bank Note Museum (which cites SCWPM as a source of information) should not be considered the only true source of information. In the case of these Russian issues, the Fox Notes website is indeed much more specialized and reliable.
However, for the 100 Ruble issue, things seem a bit more complicated than the others. In the 10 and 25 Ruble issues, the shade differed due to the type of paper they were printed on (which, obviously, affected the color tone, to which the BNM refers). For the 100 Ruble issues, I don't see a difference in the printing paper, but I do see a difference in shades.
In any case, the pages will not be merged. We will still have one page for each Pick type (as we already do). The question is what information we will put on each page.
Regards,
Vladimir
ill sort that out, ill have some free time, eventually, hopefully soon.
Here are two other examples, both (like those images) from the same auction house, Katz, they are always consistent with their photos.
I believe the BNM is confusing things, it wouldnt be the first time. The way these bukhara notes have been catalogued is by watermark and then papercolor, as shown in russian catalogues like foxnotes.
You could be right that a paper colour variety also exists but we need better images than these to prove it. BNM's images are clear and prove that both watermark types exist with white paper.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Here are two other examples, both (like those images) from the same auction house, Katz, they are always consistent with their photos.
I believe the BNM is confusing things, it wouldnt be the first time. The way these bukhara notes have been catalogued is by watermark and then papercolor, as shown in russian catalogues like foxnotes.
You could be right that a paper colour variety also exists but we need better images than these to prove it. BNM's images are clear and prove that both watermark types exist with white paper.
Maybe its cause i ctrl c+v the images and zoom cant be done, but these are nicer than BNM. Also, BNM only shows one of the watermarks, and only in one of the types.
What has been observed is that the notes with wavy watermark tend to be blueish-gray paper, and the ones with numerical watermark tend to be white. And i say observed beacsue Kutznetsov only separates the 10r depending on the watermarks, its been on collaborative catalogues like foxnotes that the relation with paper type is mentioned.
So there's a tendancy for one type to have grey paper and the other white? If that's the case, are we dealing with a situation where various papers have been used for both types? The key question is whether there's a complete correllation between watermark type and ink colour, as described in BNM. If so, that's what we should describe, with a comment that different shades (or perhaps qualities) of paper were used.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
So there's a tendancy for one type to have grey paper and the other white? If that's the case, are we dealing with a situation where various papers have been used for both types? The key question is whether there's a complete correllation between watermark type and ink colour, as described in BNM. If so, that's what we should describe, with a comment that different shades (or perhaps qualities) of paper were used.
Yes, it seems to be that way, they are also a single issue, we dont know which variety came first, just that they are part of the first 1922 issue. This is why i was arguing that these should merge, they are just varieties, other notes with different watermarks, details or colors are listed as a single entry, why not these ones?
I havent been able to find solid correlation between the watermarks and paper color, just the reported tendency. I wouldnt follow BNM, they based their catalogue from the SCWPM, which when it comes to civil war issues isnt very good, they make odd decisions and mistakes.
