Can we add info to the rare „reverse“ 10 Kopecks (15 & 16 Ribbons) variants? [resuelto]

WARNING - THIS IS A BIT OF A HEAD SCRATCHER, BUT STICK WITH IT TILL THE END - WE CAN SOLVE THIS.
 

I am sure many members have noticed this before and indeed it has been brought up twice on two previous forum posts;

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic32698.html

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic81219.html
however neither post completely deals with the problem at hand, and the page/s have stayed the same since 2014 with no resolution, and quit honestly I think that the point has been overlooked because of it’s overwhelming confusion factor.

So this coin 10 Kopecks 1957 (15 Ribbons) Y123, N#6035 , has a rare version with a high catalogue value, https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/russia-10-kopeks-y-123-1957-cuid-1112657-duid-1521913 , marked down as having the Reverse of Y116, N#5991 , 1948-1956 (16 Ribbons) - this information is taken from Krause SCWC as shown in NGC Page/s for Y123 and Y116, https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/russia-10-kopeks-y-116-1948-1956-cuid-1087937-duid-1526248 , respectively, with an equally rare Y116 having a Reverse of Y123. Just for clarity and understanding this image is the Reverse of this coin (of both coins) with the only difference being above the wheat stalk or the date, from what I can see. 
                              Y123.                                                                          Y116.

Confused yet? Well I am, because if what is recorded in the catalogues is true, then Y123 (15 Ribbons (on Obverse)), with Reverse of Y116, would simply have a 10 KON Reverse with a date other than 1957, ie a date of 1948-1956 - because that would be the Reverse of Y116 - correct?

And the Y116 (16 Ribbons), with Reverse of Y123 would simply have 10 KON Reverse with a date of 1957 - because that is the Reverse of Y123? Are you still with me? So now I think well clearly SCWC, Krause, NGC, whoever, whichever catalogue could have simply confused the Reverse with the Obverse, though if what I have just said above is true then they would have simply entered the 1957 date version on Y116 and visa versa for Y123 of dates known with an Obverse of (15 Ribbons) - this I think would make more sense than the Reverse of Y123 or Reverse of Y116. This also makes total sense looking at it from the Obverse point of view, Y123 has a version with Obverse Y116 (so there is a (16 Ribbon) version) on the previous coin Y116, and on Y116 there is an Obverse version of Y123 (15 Ribbons) with 1957 date? All easily explained by adding extra year lines to each respective coin depending on how many Ribbons they have. 

So simply put the whole existence of the version with the opposite Reverse of the other coin is simply bizarre and quite frankly ridiculous! However, I have to ask at this point, am I missing something so obvious it will make me look totally stupid when I see it? 
 

Further to this, I looked up the coins in the oldest coin book I have left from 1985 (Dietzel Coin catalogue) and Y123 and Y116 simply have no mention of this Reverse of the other coin, just the dates Y116 1948-1956 and Y123 1957. Furthermore I cannot find any examples of a Y123 1957 version with 16 Ribbons or a Y116 1948-1956 with 15 Ribbons, UCoin does not mention any variation with the Reverse of the other on their coin pages;

https://en.ucoin.net/coin/ussr-10-kopeks-1957/?tid=8849

https://en.ucoin.net/coin/ussr-10-kopeks-1948-1956/?tid=8840
and where Numista records a 1.2% and 1.9% ownership by members, we all know that these figures can sometimes be unreliable.

So the Following questions remain unanswered (at least in my opinion) for the moment;

1 - Is the variety with the „Reverse“ of the other coin the slight difference of the Wheat above the 10?

2 - Is this variety clarified more in SCWC or specific Russian coin catalogue?

3 - Is the „Reverse“ variety a mistake and should be “Obverse“, directly relating to the number of Ribbons occurring with the same dates on the Reverse?
4 - Has there been any actually recorded sales of this Reverse variant?

5 - Is this variety a later addition to the coin catalogues to drive up the price of a single year coin Y123 (15 Ribbons),
https://katzauction.com/lot/495953 , by adding confusion?

Above is my favourite sale of the recorded sales on the Numista coin page Y123, it is Y123 and the description makes a point of saying „it features the Obverse of Y123“!? Sold for €155 MS66. 
 

On this subject of prices, all the 9 recorded sales of Y123 on Numista haven’t had a version assigned to them (ie the normal 1957 or the one with the Reverse of Y116), I looked through them all and they are just the 1957 (15 Ribbons) coin with none stating that they have a „Reverse of Y116“ - assigning the correct version to these coins will take the Uncirculated Numista Price up to about €50 from the current €1.50.

Any help, thoughts will be much appreciated, especially now as the Numista catalogue pages are being referenced more and more and are seen as fact.

> 2 - Is this variety clarified more in SCWC or specific Russian coin catalogue?

https://en.numista.com/literature/volume.php?id=391

Fedorin - Soviet Coins 1921-1991 (In Russian)

16 ribbons variation got separate page

N#5991

Your NGC 1957 certification link is an error. As per Fedorin rare and expensive variants are 1956 with 15 ribbons and 1957 with 16 ribbons. All 1956 reverses and all 1957 reverses are identical in Fedorin. That NGC certificate is for coin valued below 4 USD in 2004 as per their image.

So my theory was correct, and NGC, SCWC an / or Krause and then Numista have all copied the mistake of „Reverse“ of the opposing coin instead of „Obverse“ of the other coin.  The Obverse being where the Ribbons are, 16 or 15 respectively.

So N#6035 should not have line „Reverse of Y116“ but „Obverse of Y116 (16 Ribbons)“

And N#5991 should not have line 1956 „Reverse of Y123“ but „Obverse of Y123 (15 Ribbons)“

Correct?

King

So my theory was correct, and NGC, SCWC an / or Krause and then Numista have all copied the mistake of „Reverse“ of the opposing coin instead of „Obverse“ of the other coin.  The Obverse being where the Ribbons are, 16 or 15 respectively.

 

So N#6035 should not have line „Reverse of Y116“ but „Obverse of Y116 (16 Ribbons)“

 

And N#5991 should not have line 1956 „Reverse of Y123“ but „Obverse of Y123 (15 Ribbons)“

 

Correct?

I agree. Fedorin 2nd and 3rd edition books are available on ebay, if you need them. 2nd edition might have some problems with shipping due to its location. I can post screenshot of 1956 page, if you need it.

If there is difference between 1956 and 1957 reverse designs, it is only in year line or you need microscope to find it.

For me definite catalogues of USSR coins are Fedorin - Soviet Coins 1921-1991 and Ганичев С.И. - Памятные и юбилейные монеты СССР.

Images of rare variants (if obverse and reverse are not taken from different coins)

https://coinstrail.com/catalog/russia/soviet-union-ussr/circulation-10-kopeks/65a7b65401faf5dfd8bb54ac

https://coinstrail.com/catalog/russia/soviet-union-ussr/circulation-10-kopeks/65a7b5bb01faf5dfd8bb54a7

coins.ee got authorized image for rare 1957 variant

Yes, thank you - a screen shot of the 1956 Y116 coin page would be helpful. I can then just reference this forum post as evidence for an edit to both pages.

Second edition. page 149.

“100 у.е.” is estimate price in relative currency units. If price is not listed, it is below 4. “Relative currency unit” matches USD to RUB exchange rate at the time catalogue was published. The only things with price tags are those with different ribbon counts.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9946627 - authorized image for 1957 16 ribbons.

Thanks to everyone for improving this.

The comment on the date line has been revised as submitted by @King  and a comment has been added about the mistake in Krause's comment.

"When the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic left the Soviet Union and became part of the RSFSR"

That implies that it had some independence. More likely scenario is that it was reorganized into Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic that was now part of RSFSR. One simply does not leave USSR and Warsaw pack without Grechko and T54 explaining them their mistake.

Thanks for the update @tdziemia , the approval of the line changes and the adding of additional information to the coin page. I am just the one who wanted to get to the bottom of the „Reverse“ nonsensical comment, @tokul did most of the hard work proving there was a copied mistake by numerous publications prior to Numistas fauxpas. 👍

tokul

"When the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic left the Soviet Union and became part of the RSFSR"

 

That implies that it had some independence. More likely scenario is that it was reorganized into Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic that was now part of RSFSR. One simply does not leave USSR and Warsaw pack without Grechko and T54 explaining them their mistake.

I can revise the wording ("was no longer part of the Soviet Union and became part of the RSFSR"?).

When I read the original wording (as someone without your stronger historical familiarity) I was confused that Karelo-Finnish was added to RSFSR, but the number of ribbons decreased.  So I wanted to make it clearer why the ribbons decreased.

I meant that was just reorganization by central authorities of USSR and not decision taken by moose in Karelia. Before 1956 Karelia was full SSR and was represented by a ribbon. By 1956 politburo got the memo about willingness of their western neighbors to join the union. /s

Nevermind. Just former ussr member speaking.

I have tried to make it simple